Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Tue Jun 24, 2025 4:50 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:11 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:40 am
Posts: 1286
Location: United States
ditto Joe Beaver, on waiting to hear how it sounds

Hesh, be sure and let us know, plug in a sound clip

Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:44 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States
False dichotomy: there is a whole continuum of brace shapes, and they all work well if you use them right. The trick is to figure out what each type of bracing does to the sound and structure. Then you can start out by asking the right questions: what do I want this guitar to sound like, and how can I make sure it will hold together and still give the maximum performance? Then you just use whichever sort of bracing will do that, and stop worrying about false categorizations.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:40 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:00 pm
Posts: 133
Location: United States
Alan, do you have a general idea of the sound differences of these two brace
designs? Thanks.

Ross


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:32 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
I love that so many of you have time to write such complete *******.   Wow!   I wish I could spend such idle moments chattering away...

Brace shaping and carving affects how the top breaks up into vibrational modal patterns.   Do it at your own risk....   And don't pay much attention to what you do, either...LanceK38849.3159837963


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:17 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 2227
Location: Canada
Feeling a bit bitter there Rick? I found the tone of your post a bit offensive, to be honnest. This is why we like the forum. We discuss guitar building, we chat about life, we exchange ideas and information, be it guitar related or not.... No need to get irritated. If you think it's such BS, don't bother reading or replying....

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:35 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:53 pm
Posts: 2198
Location: Hughenden Valley, England
[QUOTE=Rick Turner] I love that so many of you have time to write such complete Bull puckie.   Wow!   I wish I could spend such idle moments chattering away...
[/QUOTE]

You just did Rick.

Could you be a bit more precise as to which complete bull poo you are refering to? I've guessed it wasn't Al C's post.LanceK38849.3175925926

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:47 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:29 am
Posts: 3840
Location: England
[QUOTE=Rick Turner] I love that so many of you have time to write such complete Bull puckie.   Wow!   I wish I could spend such idle moments chattering away...

[/QUOTE]

I too found the tone of your post offensive. Reputations mean nothing to me, good manners do.

ColinLanceK38849.3170833333

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:00 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:51 am
Posts: 3786
Location: Canada
IN antoher thread, Al Carruth aid that tapered or parabolic shaped braces tend to gove a more even tone, while scallopped produces a bass heavy, mid light tone, like that fo a good dread. I myself prefer the even tone, top to bottom, and the tapered symetrical bracing that I use gives me that.

Tucked/untucked - on the top, I tuck the upper transverse, and the ends of the X which also has the rear tone bar meeting. The finger braces are lighter, usually flat, no parabolic shape, and left untucked. I have also started using an uper bout bracing that Mario ahd shown over onthe MMIF,a couple of peaked braces from the upper trans to the sides of the neck block. No more popsicle stick.

Not sure who said, but maybe Al, no matter how you brace, it will still sound like a guitar, maybe just not one you like !!!!

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:29 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:50 pm
Posts: 4662
Location: Napa, CA
Rick...please elaborate on how you approach brace shaping. The thread would be far better served with information rather than flaming. TIA

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:44 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:21 am
Posts: 2924
Location: Changes when ever I move..Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
How about carbon composite scalloped parabolic Ibeam bracing...now that must be just the thing for an intergalactic Bogon guitarist.....hows that for nonsensical cow poop Rick

Cheers

Kim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:54 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6680
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
Rick,
As someone who hosts his own forum on his own site, It seems to me that you may just have the time to "spend such idle moments chattering away...." obviously by your lack of participation on the OLF, it's not necessarily here.

We have chosen to better our selfs by sharing our musings, knowledge, hypotheses, guess' even in regard to building better guitars or just trying to build something that as an individual sounds the way we want.

Popping in from time to time to inject your verbal diarrhea is not what we need. As JJ requested, why not interject with your own knowledge, hypotheses, musings or guess even on your own approach to brace shaping. But as it appears that you mostly build guitars for electronic transmition of sound, you may not have much to offer with this particular asspect of Acoustic guitars.

What ticks me off most about your post is the lack of an intelligent response from someone who appears to be quite successful in this industry. You may very well be successful with your designs, marketing and accomplishments in the luthier industry, but you certainly don't have my respect with a junior high school type response you posted.

The end of your post sums it up quite nicely thank-you very much, "And don't pay much attention to what you do, either..."

Don't worry, I won't pay much attention to what YOU do either.


_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:31 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:32 am
Posts: 7774
Location: Canada
Rod and everybody please, let it be now, it wouldn't serve our community to go on asking Rick to further explain his thoughts, it's already been asked! Obviously, Mr Turner has problems and needs our prayers on this special day more than our venom, he's already in mine. When i read hard stuff like this, it saddens me because i see how this person hurts, so please let's let the dust come down and ask for peace and forgiveness, this day is not about judging, it is more about love and understanding. I understand your anger but please, for the community's best interest, let's regroup in love more than anger!

Serge


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:57 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:35 pm
Posts: 1021
Location: United States
Folks,
It might be best if we steer back to the discussion topic.

I usually don't chime in a whole lot here, since I have been very busy as of
late...and even though I have only been building guitars for about three
years, I consider myself a fairly intelligent person with enough sense to
sift thru what holds promise and what doesn't.

In my opinion, the two determining factors of a great guitar is having a
good design and having a lot of experience with that design.

I believe that tap-tuning as a strictly scientific endeavour is troubled at
best - it will always be shrouded in mystery. There are too many
variables and unknowns to ever be truly "certain". However, there is no
doubt, that to an experienced ear, listening to the plates can be very
helpful. I don't think you can ever "control" the sound - but I do believe
tap-tuning/experience can help you make the best of what you have.

I also arch my braces - no scalloping. But my bracing design doesn't
really allow me the luxury of scalloping, since it is as light as I want it too
be.









Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:22 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:32 am
Posts: 7774
Location: Canada
Very well said and expressed Hesh, Let's let that light of love shine! Amen


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:13 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 1518
Location: Canada
The more I thought about it the more I realized what I originally typed in this space wouldnt be conducive to harmony here, and therefore subsequently it was edited voluntarily.
Good luck with your aggression RT
Cheers
Charliewood
charliewood38823.5980555556


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:01 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:32 am
Posts: 7774
Location: Canada
Thanks Terry, i kind of agree with you for sticking with the same type of bracing for a while to get to know how to feel and read your wood but at the same time, i was thinking that after let's say 10 guitars, wouldn't one be able to feel comfortable enough to use another bracing pattern and compare the 2, let's say after the 20th, 50-60 guitars seems an awful lot of guitars to build before you know what you're doing, but hey, i've only built one so i might just be putting my foot in my mouth after my post!

Thanks

Serge


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:44 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2951
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
Hesh

Your use of incalescent lighting is realy cool! I have to remember that!

Serge,

I know what you mean about sticking with an certain plan until you have enough experience to try something else. But then on the other hand...

When I starting playing golf the salesman said... no, no, no, you don't want that set. That's for the more advanced player. Start with something like this. Or when I got into skiing they said get the beginner equipmemt. When you are better you can try the good stuff. Or when I started building houses they said start with a simple plan. Then maybe in time you can try something more difficult.

Needless to say I'm not the kind of guy to lisen to that kind of advice. I charge right ahead and I am always glad I did.

The moral of this story is to push ahead as hard as you want. Even when you fail you win.

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:06 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:53 pm
Posts: 2198
Location: Hughenden Valley, England
[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
The top before bracing and after sounded like punching your fist into a concrete wall (before your hand breaks....). There was no tone or resonance to it at all. After bracing it improved but only a slight amount and I had to get another opinion to make sure it was not wishful thinking on my part.

I am believing that my materials are simply very stiff and my hope is that some finish sanding and break-in will pull it all together.

[/QUOTE]

Hey Hesh,

Tell it it's not going to get a sunburst and maybe it will relax a little

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:08 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States
Actually, what Rick said is one of the keys:
"Brace shaping and carving affects how the top breaks up into vibrational modal patterns. "

In terms of the tone, the guitar _is_ those modal patterns, and the shapes, frequencies, and damping of those modes are what you control to 'shape' the sound. There are real limits to our understanding of this: much of the variation between guitars seems to be in those modes that happen at high frequencies, and are hard to 'see'without lasers and optical methods. Still, even the lower modes that we can see easily have effects.

Most of the actual power produced is the result of the top moving in and out like a loudspeaker cone. The resonant pattern of this shape is the 'main top' mode, and usually occurs around 200 Hz; say the pitch of the open G string. That just means that it's easier to drive the top this way at that pitch than any other, not that it only happens there. This mode has a long 'tail' into the upper frequency regions: it's still producing more sound at 1000 Hz than any of the resonant patterns near that frequency.

There are two reasons for this: those higher-order modes tend to involve small areas (think, 'transistor radio' against '15" woofer'), but, more importantly, they each involve a _lot_ of small areas. There's a lot of 'phase cancellation' going on in those higher modes, with the air 'sloshing' back and forth and not really making any noise for you. This is worse, for a variety of reasons, in the lower 'multipole modes', such as the 'cross dipole' and 'long dipole' modes that are just a bit higher in pitch than the 'main top' mode that's doing most of the work.

If you look at the patterns of these modes, and think about where the stiffness of the bracing is, you can see what effects different styles of brace shaping will have. To look at just two: the 'main top' mode is moving and bending a lot in the middle, with much less bending as you get closer to the edges. The 'cross dipole' mode, in which the two ends of the bridge move up and down out of phase, rocking across the center line of the top, shows a lot of bending near the bridge ends, and none at all in the center of the top.

So, let's start with 'straight' bracing: uniform height all the way along until you taper it down near the ends, as our 'norm'. If you scallop that bracing you're reducing stiffness in the center, which will drop the pitch of the 'main top' mode, but you don't take much wood off where the 'cross dipole' bending is going on. Tapered bracing works the other way; dropping the 'cross dipole' for little, if any, change in the 'main top' pitch and activity.

What does this mean in terms of tone? Well, remember, the 'cross dipole' is much less effective at producing sound than the 'main top' mode. If the dipole comes in close to the main mode in frequency it will tend to 'steal' energy from the 'main top' vibration, with the result that the spectrum of the guitar will 'fall off' quickly above the tall 'main top' peak. This tends to give a 'sharp', 'bright' or 'cutting' sound, so tapering the braces tends to go in that direction. Scalloping them increases the pitch seperation between the 'main top' and 'cross dipole' mode frequencies, and thus increases both the height and width of the 'main top' peak in the output. The tone tends to be 'warm', 'full' or 'bassy', but perhaps lacking in 'clarity'. The extra amplitude gives you a lot of 'punch'.

This is just one exapmle, and only the beginnings of it: you need to think about all of the things that the guitar is doing to get a real picture of what the tonal effects of any particular brace profile will be. And, of course, it's all relative: scalloped braces on a Parlor sound a lot different from the same profile on a Dread, because the 'balance' of the design is different: 'bass' has a different meaning.

Ultimately, as I said, you have to look at brace profile as one of a number of variables that you juggle to get the sound you want. There are no absolutely 'correct' answers, only relatively 'better' or 'worse' ones depending on what you're trying to do.    



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:56 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2951
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
Alan Carruth,

That is very thoughtful & useful information. Thank you.

It will help me understand why things are the way they are. If it's okay with you I'm going to save it in my bracing file.

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:00 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2951
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
Alan,
Just one more question. How would you characterise the affects of different back bracing patterns, say ladder verses X?

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com